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floatingleafSo... I have finally caught up on what the whole big 'tinhat' controversy was all about. Not that anyone cares what I think - I am not delusional, at least not about that.;) But this is my personal journal, and I feel like sorting this out for myself, so... here goes.
It makes me very sad thatmellacita has deleted her journal. I hope she will come back. Now that I have finally read the initial post that triggered her reaction (it wasn't on my flist, but someone on my flist referred to it), I can understand why she felt upset/offended; while, on the other hand, I am pretty sure the post couldn't have been intentionally referring to her in any way. It talked about women who consistently 'bash' Orlando's dates and claim he has a secret relationship with Viggo - not because they have any rational reason to believe that might be true, but because they secretly (or subconsciously) want Orlando for themselves and can't handle the thought of him being with another woman (why it would be easier to handle him being with Viggo in that case is another matter). Now, to me that doesn't sound like Mellacita at all. Not anywhere close, even. She's nothing if not rational, always backs up her statements with relevant research, doesn't - as far as I know - fancy either Orlando or Viggo for herself, and has never made a comment about any of Orlando's former or current dates that could be interpreted as bashing. At least not by my definition (stating one's belief that Orlando isn't likely to actually be romantically involved with this or that person has nothing to do with bashing, in my book). If there are indeed women in this fandom who act in the way described by that post, then I don't know who they are (lucky me, I might say ;), and Mel is definitely not one of them. All the more sad and ironic that she seems to have been the most upset by it (again, I understand the gut reaction, because I felt it too - even though I knew it couldn't have been aimed at me, because, in all likelihood, the author of that post doesn't even know who I am). But I know all about taking things to heart and letting other people's opinions bring you down more than they should, so yeah. *sympathizes*
As for my stand on the issue itself, it's not set in stone either way (I certainly haven't done any serious research on the matter, lol) - but, in my humble subjective perception, Orlando gives off a definite gay vibe, while Viggo seems to be simply pansexual and rejecting labels on principle (as well as quite happy just living by himself, thank you very much). Of course that doesn't necessarily mean they are/were in any way involved with each other - but I think it's an option just as likely as not. Just like the option of Orlando (or his 'handlers') staging heterosexual dates for publicity (and no, I don't judge him for doing that, if that is indeed what he does - not everyone is ready to be 'out' to the entire universe, and I'm not going to throw proverbial biblical stones while having no clue how I would feel in his shoes). That said, I do not 'hate' any of his various girlfriends, nor do I wish to be in their place. I may have had a few nice erotic dreams involving him or Viggo or both, but in truth, I wouldn't know what to do with a guy. I have never been with one. So my 'tinhattery' has nothing to do with being jealous. It has more to do with finding a heterosexual relationship a far more disturbing concept than a homosexual one.:P That said, if either Orlando or Viggo are indeed happily in love with a specimen of the opposite sex, then good for them, and I won't love them any less for it. I don't tend to 'bash' other women, unless they upset me personally - and neither do any of the Viggorli 'tinhats' I happen to call friends. Unless it's very tongue-in-cheek.;) Or so I hope. And it just doesn't feel fair to have us all thrown into the same sack with the label 'mentally disturbed' or 'spiteful' on it.
Okay. That's pretty much the essence of my approach, for the benefit of anyone who might actually care to know. Or for my own benefit, because I am well aware of the implications of the fact that even when I post something like a "you made my day" meme that tags ten people, only one person actually leaves a comment. That makes me pretty influential, eh?...;) (no worries, I'm not suicidal over it; just quoting the statistics, as it were)
On that optimistic note... good night.:)
EDIT: Well... it appears that Mel is back. Glad to see that. *relieved sigh* Off to bed now. *yawns*
It makes me very sad that
mellacita has deleted her journal. I hope she will come back. Now that I have finally read the initial post that triggered her reaction (it wasn't on my flist, but someone on my flist referred to it), I can understand why she felt upset/offended; while, on the other hand, I am pretty sure the post couldn't have been intentionally referring to her in any way. It talked about women who consistently 'bash' Orlando's dates and claim he has a secret relationship with Viggo - not because they have any rational reason to believe that might be true, but because they secretly (or subconsciously) want Orlando for themselves and can't handle the thought of him being with another woman (why it would be easier to handle him being with Viggo in that case is another matter). Now, to me that doesn't sound like Mellacita at all. Not anywhere close, even. She's nothing if not rational, always backs up her statements with relevant research, doesn't - as far as I know - fancy either Orlando or Viggo for herself, and has never made a comment about any of Orlando's former or current dates that could be interpreted as bashing. At least not by my definition (stating one's belief that Orlando isn't likely to actually be romantically involved with this or that person has nothing to do with bashing, in my book). If there are indeed women in this fandom who act in the way described by that post, then I don't know who they are (lucky me, I might say ;), and Mel is definitely not one of them. All the more sad and ironic that she seems to have been the most upset by it (again, I understand the gut reaction, because I felt it too - even though I knew it couldn't have been aimed at me, because, in all likelihood, the author of that post doesn't even know who I am). But I know all about taking things to heart and letting other people's opinions bring you down more than they should, so yeah. *sympathizes*As for my stand on the issue itself, it's not set in stone either way (I certainly haven't done any serious research on the matter, lol) - but, in my humble subjective perception, Orlando gives off a definite gay vibe, while Viggo seems to be simply pansexual and rejecting labels on principle (as well as quite happy just living by himself, thank you very much). Of course that doesn't necessarily mean they are/were in any way involved with each other - but I think it's an option just as likely as not. Just like the option of Orlando (or his 'handlers') staging heterosexual dates for publicity (and no, I don't judge him for doing that, if that is indeed what he does - not everyone is ready to be 'out' to the entire universe, and I'm not going to throw proverbial biblical stones while having no clue how I would feel in his shoes). That said, I do not 'hate' any of his various girlfriends, nor do I wish to be in their place. I may have had a few nice erotic dreams involving him or Viggo or both, but in truth, I wouldn't know what to do with a guy. I have never been with one. So my 'tinhattery' has nothing to do with being jealous. It has more to do with finding a heterosexual relationship a far more disturbing concept than a homosexual one.:P That said, if either Orlando or Viggo are indeed happily in love with a specimen of the opposite sex, then good for them, and I won't love them any less for it. I don't tend to 'bash' other women, unless they upset me personally - and neither do any of the Viggorli 'tinhats' I happen to call friends. Unless it's very tongue-in-cheek.;) Or so I hope. And it just doesn't feel fair to have us all thrown into the same sack with the label 'mentally disturbed' or 'spiteful' on it.
Okay. That's pretty much the essence of my approach, for the benefit of anyone who might actually care to know. Or for my own benefit, because I am well aware of the implications of the fact that even when I post something like a "you made my day" meme that tags ten people, only one person actually leaves a comment. That makes me pretty influential, eh?...;) (no worries, I'm not suicidal over it; just quoting the statistics, as it were)
On that optimistic note... good night.:)
EDIT: Well... it appears that Mel is back. Glad to see that. *relieved sigh* Off to bed now. *yawns*
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-02-24 02:36 pm (UTC)My flist has always had both so-called tinhats and not, and while I have definite beliefs I have tried not to cram them down anyone's throat, making liberal use of filters. I even allowed the flist to vote on whether they wanted to be part of the tinhat filter or wanted to avoid such foolishness on their flists. Unfortunately, one of my hot buttons is and will always be people telling me I am stupid and illogical, because while I may be many things--those two things I ain't. This particular wanks drew out a number of very confident posts and comments that just really, really pushed those buttons, and the sources of those comments were sometimes surprising.
The weirdest part of all of it was, though, the fact that I reacted so strongly to this when I was just about done with VO anyway. I guess it's hard to break the habit of several years. Bashing tinhats--knee jerk reaction from me. :P Because the double standard that it is okay to make fun of the "crazies" but heaven forfend any of us make any jokes or comments about people who don't. When I look around at supposed "tinhats" I see some incredibly intelligent and accomplished people in life, not just fandom. Just as there are in people who don't believe in it. Sooo...maybe to tinhat or not isn't related to intelligence or logical ability and maybe just has to do with a world view or different lens or experience that is no less valid than anyone elses' so just vive la difference and ignore it if it isn't hurting you?
Of course, after several hours later I was wondering why the hell I even cared, when I had a backup of Torchwood stuff to read, don't really know anythign about Miranda Kerr, and havent been paying close attention to anything either have done in a couple of weeks. Silly me. ;)
(no subject)
Date: 2008-02-24 03:58 pm (UTC)I've seen the articles and such about O & MK and like I always do, I just sort of shrugged it off. If it's really a relationship, I suppose we'll know soooner or later, but it's not something that rules my life or anything.
I tend to agree with pretty much what you said,
I'm glad you posted this, though--I was sort of wondering what the hell was going on. My own f-list has very few folks that would be on the bashing-the-tinhats side. I don't generally see a lot of drama here. I love that about my list!
(no subject)
Date: 2008-02-24 04:22 pm (UTC)I don't ask for much anymore--just that people not insult me for my personal threory. I'm all in favor of this "agreeing to disagree"--but both sides have to, rather than one side sitting back publically taking the piss out of the other and launching attacks on integrity, intelligence, and sanity. Where's the spirit of diversity everyone is lauding in that?
(no subject)
Date: 2008-02-24 04:25 pm (UTC)Also, agreed re: launching of attacks...why is only ONE side allowed an opinion? Diversity, my ass!
*needs Torchwood icon*
(no subject)
Date: 2008-02-24 06:14 pm (UTC)Yes, I think that's very likely too. And sometimes I hate the thought that we will never know... but I'm trying my best to be respectful and not pry too much into their personal lives. The slash should be enough, shouldn't it? ;)
I was sort of wondering what the hell was going on
So was I, until
(no subject)
Date: 2008-02-24 05:59 pm (UTC)I can totally understand that. For me, it's people accusing me of being insincere/dishonest, or not giving a shit about something, when I know I give way too much. That just makes me see red. And I've had my fair share of it too. *sigh*
When I look around at supposed "tinhats" I see some incredibly intelligent and accomplished people in life, not just fandom. Just as there are in people who don't believe in it. Sooo...maybe to tinhat or not isn't related to intelligence or logical ability and maybe just has to do with a world view or different lens or experience that is no less valid than anyone elses'
That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Thinking particularly of you and Romi, who are among the smartest, most mentally evolved people I know.
several hours later I was wondering why the hell I even cared
Like I said above, I'm pretty sure the post wasn't about you or anyone I know personally... and yet, I felt the sting. Like