a strange post, in which I surprisingly seem to notice what's going on around me :)

[floatingleaf]

So... I have finally caught up on what the whole big 'tinhat' controversy was all about. Not that anyone cares what I think - I am not delusional, at least not about that.;) But this is my personal journal, and I feel like sorting this out for myself, so... here goes.

It makes me very sad that mellacita has deleted her journal. I hope she will come back. Now that I have finally read the initial post that triggered her reaction (it wasn't on my flist, but someone on my flist referred to it), I can understand why she felt upset/offended; while, on the other hand, I am pretty sure the post couldn't have been intentionally referring to her in any way. It talked about women who consistently 'bash' Orlando's dates and claim he has a secret relationship with Viggo - not because they have any rational reason to believe that might be true, but because they secretly (or subconsciously) want Orlando for themselves and can't handle the thought of him being with another woman (why it would be easier to handle him being with Viggo in that case is another matter). Now, to me that doesn't sound like Mellacita at all. Not anywhere close, even. She's nothing if not rational, always backs up her statements with relevant research, doesn't - as far as I know - fancy either Orlando or Viggo for herself, and has never made a comment about any of Orlando's former or current dates that could be interpreted as bashing. At least not by my definition (stating one's belief that Orlando isn't likely to actually be romantically involved with this or that person has nothing to do with bashing, in my book). If there are indeed women in this fandom who act in the way described by that post, then I don't know who they are (lucky me, I might say ;), and Mel is definitely not one of them. All the more sad and ironic that she seems to have been the most upset by it (again, I understand the gut reaction, because I felt it too - even though I knew it couldn't have been aimed at me, because, in all likelihood, the author of that post doesn't even know who I am). But I know all about taking things to heart and letting other people's opinions bring you down more than they should, so yeah. *sympathizes*

As for my stand on the issue itself, it's not set in stone either way (I certainly haven't done any serious research on the matter, lol) - but, in my humble subjective perception, Orlando gives off a definite gay vibe, while Viggo seems to be simply pansexual and rejecting labels on principle (as well as quite happy just living by himself, thank you very much). Of course that doesn't necessarily mean they are/were in any way involved with each other - but I think it's an option just as likely as not. Just like the option of Orlando (or his 'handlers') staging heterosexual dates for publicity (and no, I don't judge him for doing that, if that is indeed what he does - not everyone is ready to be 'out' to the entire universe, and I'm not going to throw proverbial biblical stones while having no clue how I would feel in his shoes). That said, I do not 'hate' any of his various girlfriends, nor do I wish to be in their place. I may have had a few nice erotic dreams involving him or Viggo or both, but in truth, I wouldn't know what to do with a guy. I have never been with one. So my 'tinhattery' has nothing to do with being jealous. It has more to do with finding a heterosexual relationship a far more disturbing concept than a homosexual one.:P That said, if either Orlando or Viggo are indeed happily in love with a specimen of the opposite sex, then good for them, and I won't love them any less for it. I don't tend to 'bash' other women, unless they upset me personally - and neither do any of the Viggorli 'tinhats' I happen to call friends. Unless it's very tongue-in-cheek.;) Or so I hope. And it just doesn't feel fair to have us all thrown into the same sack with the label 'mentally disturbed' or 'spiteful' on it.

Okay. That's pretty much the essence of my approach, for the benefit of anyone who might actually care to know. Or for my own benefit, because I am well aware of the implications of the fact that even when I post something like a "you made my day" meme that tags ten people, only one person actually leaves a comment. That makes me pretty influential, eh?...;) (no worries, I'm not suicidal over it; just quoting the statistics, as it were)

On that optimistic note... good night.:)

EDIT: Well... it appears that Mel is back. Glad to see that. *relieved sigh* Off to bed now. *yawns*

Comments

[matan4il.livejournal.com]

I don't know what's going in but this person - is it okay if I ask who they are? - upsets me because I hate it when people generalize. You never can do that without being wrong to some degree and steeping on someone's toes...

[floatingleaf.livejournal.com]

Hey you!!!:) I was sort of wondering if you were maybe somehow offended by something in my email a few weeks ago, since you never responded to it. But I should have known you're just a busy girl. *hugs*

The author of the original post was pecos - who is an amazing slash writer, btw. I don't know, maybe she had good reason to be annoyed with the people she was talking about... but some felt insulted, precisely because she didn't mention any names and pretty much everyone who ever believed in 'RL Viggorli' could possibly imagine she was referring to them (even though in the cases of people who reacted negatively to the post, she most likely wasn't). Just... a lot of confusion & misunderstanding all around. *sigh*

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

It was a little more complicated than just a single reation to pecos' post, and the deleting was temporary until I could get everything in my LJ privatized because I suddenly had gawkers trolling about that I didn't want thanks to assorted related-to-the-wank stuff. :P *hugs* Thanks for being worried, though.

My flist has always had both so-called tinhats and not, and while I have definite beliefs I have tried not to cram them down anyone's throat, making liberal use of filters. I even allowed the flist to vote on whether they wanted to be part of the tinhat filter or wanted to avoid such foolishness on their flists. Unfortunately, one of my hot buttons is and will always be people telling me I am stupid and illogical, because while I may be many things--those two things I ain't. This particular wanks drew out a number of very confident posts and comments that just really, really pushed those buttons, and the sources of those comments were sometimes surprising.

The weirdest part of all of it was, though, the fact that I reacted so strongly to this when I was just about done with VO anyway. I guess it's hard to break the habit of several years. Bashing tinhats--knee jerk reaction from me. :P Because the double standard that it is okay to make fun of the "crazies" but heaven forfend any of us make any jokes or comments about people who don't. When I look around at supposed "tinhats" I see some incredibly intelligent and accomplished people in life, not just fandom. Just as there are in people who don't believe in it. Sooo...maybe to tinhat or not isn't related to intelligence or logical ability and maybe just has to do with a world view or different lens or experience that is no less valid than anyone elses' so just vive la difference and ignore it if it isn't hurting you?

Of course, after several hours later I was wondering why the hell I even cared, when I had a backup of Torchwood stuff to read, don't really know anythign about Miranda Kerr, and havent been paying close attention to anything either have done in a couple of weeks. Silly me. ;)

[gairid.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to see that you haven't gone away, Mel--and I don't know where I was when all this was happening, though I haven't had as much time to follow my flist like I usually di because I'm embroiled in writing something at the moment.

I've seen the articles and such about O & MK and like I always do, I just sort of shrugged it off. If it's really a relationship, I suppose we'll know soooner or later, but it's not something that rules my life or anything.

I tend to agree with pretty much what you said, floatingleaf., though I think I might go it one step further and say while I don't know about *now*< I pretty much believe V/O had a relationship at one time that went a little (alot?) beyond the whole 'Viggo is my mentor' thing. Can I prove it? No. Do I feel the need to? Also no. Just a feeling or opinion or whatever. No, I don't want either of them for myself. No I don't hate any of the women Orlando has been --erm--linked to.

I'm glad you posted this, though--I was sort of wondering what the hell was going on. My own f-list has very few folks that would be on the bashing-the-tinhats side. I don't generally see a lot of drama here. I love that about my list!

[mellacita.livejournal.com]

At the end of it, I am a couple of years beyond caring how each person personally theorizes Viggorli. Now, Jack and Ianto...(j/k).

I don't ask for much anymore--just that people not insult me for my personal threory. I'm all in favor of this "agreeing to disagree"--but both sides have to, rather than one side sitting back publically taking the piss out of the other and launching attacks on integrity, intelligence, and sanity. Where's the spirit of diversity everyone is lauding in that?

[gairid.livejournal.com]

Ah, Jack/Ianto. :)

Also, agreed re: launching of attacks...why is only ONE side allowed an opinion? Diversity, my ass!

*needs Torchwood icon*

[floatingleaf.livejournal.com]

I think I might go it one step further and say while I don't know about *now*< I pretty much believe V/O had a relationship at one time that went a little (alot?) beyond the whole 'Viggo is my mentor' thing.

Yes, I think that's very likely too. And sometimes I hate the thought that we will never know... but I'm trying my best to be respectful and not pry too much into their personal lives. The slash should be enough, shouldn't it? ;)

I was sort of wondering what the hell was going on

So was I, until alliwantisanelf made a post explaining the whole thing. It appears to have been one huge misunderstanding. I guess that's bound to happen occasionally when there are hundreds of people involved who have strong opinions on a given subject. I just needed to set the record straight for myself, so to speak (not that there's much 'straight' to be said about my record... ;).

[floatingleaf.livejournal.com]

one of my hot buttons is and will always be people telling me I am stupid and illogical, because while I may be many things--those two things I ain't

I can totally understand that. For me, it's people accusing me of being insincere/dishonest, or not giving a shit about something, when I know I give way too much. That just makes me see red. And I've had my fair share of it too. *sigh*

When I look around at supposed "tinhats" I see some incredibly intelligent and accomplished people in life, not just fandom. Just as there are in people who don't believe in it. Sooo...maybe to tinhat or not isn't related to intelligence or logical ability and maybe just has to do with a world view or different lens or experience that is no less valid than anyone elses'

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. Thinking particularly of you and Romi, who are among the smartest, most mentally evolved people I know.

several hours later I was wondering why the hell I even cared

Like I said above, I'm pretty sure the post wasn't about you or anyone I know personally... and yet, I felt the sting. Like matan4il said above, generalizing like that is bound to step on someone's toes. *regretful sigh*

[eliriel1.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with your theory about Viggo and Orli 'Orlando gives off a definite gay vibe, while Viggo seems to be simply pansexual and rejecting labels on principle '.That's what I always thought about them.As for commenting, sometimes, I didn't, because I think that I have nothing to tell that matters ( yeah, I know I am a moron..LOL) and I am really upset that people need to bash others to be in evidence, because this is what I think they want.To be in evidence.Can't be another purpose in the bashing.
Big Hug,my friend.
Liri

[romi.livejournal.com]

why it would be easier to handle him being with Viggo in that case is another matter

My thought as well... well put! I think it was a well written post. But it would have come through as stronger to me if she hadn't put that strange pseudo psychoanalyses in the end. Is it only the belief that a person is gay in real life that would render such an analyses? She seems unaware (?) that people who write slash are looked upon in the very same way, if they believe the current slashed actor is gay in real life or not. A selection of what I have read:

-- Slash is written because the woman feels inferior to other women,
-- because she can't handle the thought of the favorite actor with another woman,
-- because the writer fears/hates her mother (can't stand another woman in a sex scene)
-- because the writer fears/hates the father (can't stand the thought of a man doing something to a woman in a sex scene)
-- because the writer is homosexual herself

et cetera.

Summary: if she writes slash herself she is pretty much in the same boat as other slash writing women, even if these women believe an actor is gay in real life or not. perhaps a little thought to consider when the need to rock the boat becomes too strong.

[floatingleaf.livejournal.com]

Interesting point, my dear. It's all stereotypes, basically, and we all fall victim either to being 'stereotypized' ourselves, or to doing it to others. Or both. In other words, generalizing is hardly ever a good idea. *sigh*

[stormatdusk.livejournal.com]

i can barely get online lately, damn it, but i know the gist of what's been going on. i figured you for the beliefs you state here, so it feels good to know i had that much about you right.

you know, i just don't care whether someone is a tinhat or not. i don't honestly care if you (not you personally; i'm using you generically here) think they used to shag, do shag now, never shagged, are gay, straight, pan, WHATEVER. i don't care. i just care that you show some respect to others, and of course to these people we all claim to be fans of. we don't belong telling each other what to believe any more than we do prescribing how viggo and orlando or any of them should live their private lives. that's my only 'requirment.'

it sucks that it has to be all complicated, and all divisive. *sigh*

[floatingleaf.livejournal.com]

i just care that you show some respect to others, and of course to these people we all claim to be fans of

That's the essence of it, basically. *nods*

But people love to complicate and divide. That's our evil nature.;P

[aelfwitchfic.livejournal.com]

Its because of that post that I am revamping my LJ...it upset me, it truly did...I would love to talk this over with you girl in person...I was actually home this weekend...LOL
I did call you to let you know...and even left a message...LOL

But Saturday I am out again and Sunday I have something to do with my mom...lets make a date...your bday is coming up and I would like to see you.

What would you like for your bday? I can make you a wallpaper of Viggo or VO or Aragorn/Legolas...let me know babe...
*hugs you*
Miss you!!

[floatingleaf.livejournal.com]

Hey babe. Sorry I didn't call you back. I just wasn't sure I would be able to see you last night. Fridays aren't the best choice for me - unless I can leave work earlier, but yesterday I couldn't, because I was late pretty much every day this week due to the weather, and had to stay longer to make up for that. And then I had to do some grocery shopping on the way back too, so I got home around 8 p.m. And being tired after the whole week, I really didn't feel like staying up too late. I know Friday night is considered the beginning of the weekend by most people - but for me the weekend doesn't really start until Saturday morning, after I've had a good eight hours of sleep... LOL. Besides, my place is filthy - I haven't cleaned it in weeks. I was just planning to get to it this weekend. So I would have been simply embarrassed to let you in here last night. *blushes*

I hope we can do something next weekend - though at this point I am not sure, because my parents want to see me for my birthday too. And weekends just seem scarily short to me of late. But we'll see. I'll let you know.

I can make you a wallpaper of Viggo or VO or Aragorn/Legolas...

Aragorn/Legolas... please. *bats eyelashes*

I hope you won't give up on me because of my general antisocial attitude. It's winter depression, I think, and it will pass when the snow melts & the first fragile blades of grass make an appearance. *crosses fingers* ;)